God and Atheism

[Wat (temple) in Chiang Mai, Thailand]

A friend of mine and fellow zaadzster, James Norris, wrote a really interesting note on Facebook that I'd like to share. James is kind of a guru to me, as he's a few years older, much more experienced, and no doubt wiser. I responded to his note at length, and it was written for a facebook audience so it may be a little different in terms of what and how I would articulate my views.This post goes well, I hope, with C4Chaos, Bill Harryman, (I really appreciate the perspective and information both of you copiously provide) and others writings on atheism, religion, morality, and all that surrounds these huge topics. I would love any feedback or information because a lot of you out there know much more about these subjects.


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I'm an open-minded, tolerant atheist (nontheist, really). And a radical skeptic at heart.

I really admire the ability of people of faith to commit so firmly to something. But to be honest, I would personally prefer that this something involved a rigorous pursuit of ethical living or rational inquiry into the universe, but to each their own. [Or even committing to give me money for my causes. That'd always be nice!]

That said, I am curious about why people believe what they believe. So what "are" you and why? What do you believe? And more specifically, help me understand some quotes that I find thought-provoking for one reason or another. I hope these aren't considered offensive.

A. Why One and Not the Other?
"We don't have a word for not believing in Zeus, which is to say we are all atheists in respect to Zeus. And we don't have a word for not being an astrologer." -Sam Harris

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." -Richard Dawkins

B. Religion & Birthplace
"If you have a faith, it is statistically overwhelmingly likely that it is the same faith as your parents and grandparents had. The most important variable determining your religion is the accident of birth. The convictions that you so passionately believe would have been a completely different, and largely contradictory, set of convictions, if only you had happened to be born in a different place. Epidemiology, not evidence." -Richard Dawkins

C. Respecting Faith Unconditionally
"As long as we accept the principle that religious faith must be respected simply because it is religious faith, it is hard to withhold respect from the faith of Osama bin Laden and the suicide bombers." -Richard Dawkins

Note: I still would respect their ability to have disciplined convictions, despite my thoughts on the ideology.

D. Divine Basis of Morality
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." -Albert Einstein

E. Theism Used to Justify Atrocities
"The most heinous and the most cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives." -Mohandas Gandhi

F. Proof & Belief
"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." -Christopher Hitchens

Note: evidence isn't everything, in my opinion.

G. Problem of Evil
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -Epicurus

H. Similar Stories
“Nearly all peoples have developed their own creation myth, and the Genesis story is just the one that happened to have been adopted by one particular tribe of Middle Eastern herders. It has no more special status than the belief of a particular West African tribe that the world was created from the excrement of ants.” -Richard Dawkins

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My response:

Joseph Campbell: God is a metaphor for human existence and the 'beyond'. Theists: metaphor + real, atheists: just metaphor.

One cannot decide which side to subscribe to, even though we do, but only experience the truth. This experience occurs during the evolution of consciousness. Passion, eloquence, or logical complexity cannot create certainty or understanding in consciousness relating to the question of God.

Religion has been divided by some into two main categories: dogmatic and contemplative. Dogmatic religion necessitates a belief and thereby a following of certain rules and regulations. Contemplative religion lives by the axiom of, by doing certain things (exercises of body, mind, and intuition/spirit), certain results follow: evolution of consciousness. The founder of every major religion has mastered all/most of these exercises and has theoretically achieved a stage of consciousness that all human beings aspire to. When comparing contemplative traditions, a map of stages and states emerge with such high correlation that the research merits a major psychological expedition (ask me about evidence). However, most people remain generally unaware of the transformative nature of contemplative religion. The bastion of reason often prevents people from perceiving a state or stage of consciousness that cannot be understood 'logically'.

"Only in the senseless will the senses be confided" - Rumi

This expedition/adventure/mission/search for holy grail is a central metaphor for human life, replaying itself constantly in socio-cultural unfoldings. All humans by nature of their being must embark on this quest, but modern society has not been built in order to facilitate this evolution. Hence, mass anomie and psychological stunting. At the core of each major religion is a map (map=religion in some sense) of self-actualization. Contemplative religion works by a 'self-actualized' person guiding a group of 'working to self-actualize' people. But remember,

"The thing we tell of can never be found by seeking, yet only seekers find it." - Bayazid Bistami

To respond,

A. Fuck Dawkins. Only half kidding. His eminence often dogmatizes the dismissal of God though. As far as I know, he is a materialist, meaning that he does not understand the phenomenological nature of consciousness and therefore cannot understand the concept of God properly, let alone figure out if 'it' exists. I think Harris understands phenomenology.
B. Yes.
C. Good point.
D. Irrelevant, at least temporarily, for discussion of God's reality.
E. Yep.
F. Phenomenology=internal science=interior research of stages and states of consciousness. Materialists don't understand this and therefore dismiss the proof without proof. Hmm..
G. That comes later.
H.Forget Dawkins, read Joseph Campbell (preeminent mythologist) if you want to see why that quotation is foolish.

I hover at the threshold between atheism and theism because I cannot 100% be sure that God exists until I experience the reality of God, if such a perception can take place. From my research, this perception can take place and is the root of religion. I do not follow a religion but I have studied some and I am most drawn to Sufism because I believe it most profoundly expresses the complexity, chaos, and depth of the human being poetically and theologically.

I try to use reason to answer my basic questions of how to live a meaningful and altruistic life day to day, but ultimately we must get into metaphysics/religion if we're trying to figure out why we're living...which is what I'm guessing this post is for.

My faith is guided by the following vision, and although I cannot be sure it's true, I now know how to find out.

"Everything you see has its roots in the unseen world.
The forms may change, yet the essence remains the same.
Every wonderful sight will vanish,
Every sweet word will fade,
But do not be disheartened,
The source they come from is eternal, growing,
Branching out, giving new life and new joy.
Why do you weep?
The source is within you
And this whole world is springing up from it."